Thomas Lindaman writes:
In my continuing "coverage" of Astroturf Wall Street, I did a bit of digging
"Digging?"
and found the following. (My responses are in bold.)
http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-wall-street-draft-manifesto-183205447.html
That "draft" was a suggestion from one person from AdBusters. According to you, it's not AdBusters running the movement, because then it would be grassroots.
Which is it, Lindaman? Is the manifesto draft representative of OWS (making you a fool for responding to it, since it wouldn't be from the dark shadowy organization behind it), or is the movement grassroots (making you a fool for lying about it being astroturfed)? ROFL!
Sorry, Lindaman. It's the worst of both worlds for you. The manifesto draft isn't an official OWS set of demands, and AdBusters started the idea for OWS, but they aren't in control of OWS. Nobody is. That's what pisses you guys off so much. And now you look like a fool both ways. lol
Yet again, Lindaman has to resort to desperation like this. Aren't strawmen fun?
Ah, well... let's humor him:
A MESSAGE TO AMERICA FROM THE PEOPLE'S ASSEMBLY IN ZUCOTTI PARK
Dear fellow Americans,
We are assembled in Zucotti Park which we've renamed Liberty Plaza in the financial district of New York, because we believe that the American economy is heading in the wrong direction and we have a few ideas for what to do about it. Yeah, like taking a crap on police cars.
Jealous because he shit on a police car instead of in your mouth? And you think they are the pervs?
But seriously, all we've got is a picture of some unidentified random nut with his ass pressed against a police car. No eyewitnesses are named. No other photographs to even confirm he took the dump (how can you take a dump when your ass is pressed against something?). No streaks on the car or other evidence that he's had a bowel movement against it. There isn't even a pile of it on the ground. Also, the article itself says the police ignored the ones that tried to report him. Where's the police report? The Daily Mail and even Blaze says the man is unidentified. The guy that claims he took the photo even tweeted that he couldn't identify him as a protester. The squad car was from Brooklyn, according to the precinct number on it. Was the picture taken in Brooklyn or in Manhattan? It makes a difference, buddy. So, where's the evidence that he's a protester and not a random drunk?
There is a feeling shared by a growing number of people on the streets of the world that the global economy has become a kind of Ponzi scheme, a global casino, run by and for the benefit of the 1 percent. You mean like Michael Moore?
Yep, like Michael Moore. He benefits from it, too. Moore himself says so, and Moore himself wants economic reform even if he has to pay more taxes to get it. Got a problem with that?
We believe that it is possible to inject justice into the global economy. We have come up with the following list of things that can be done right now to rejuvenate democracy and economic justice in our country:
" Halt foreclosures for the unemployed, sick and elderly Why? A mortgage is an agreement, and the terms of the mortgage allow for the foreclosure on people regardless of their personal circumstances. There is no exception to paying your mortgage if you get sick, lose your job, or are old.
Then why aren't you decrying the bailouts? If a corporation can be bailed out, why can't there be a temporary halt on mortgages?
" Increase funding to public services by taxing the richest 1 percent Which will result in the rich paying more, unless they find loopholes, and resulting in nothing positive happening. What happens if those taxes don't solve the problem? What will your solution be? MORE taxes?
Public service funding won't solve anything? What you basing this on?
And if they find loopholes, close them.
" Forgive all student loan debt See above regarding mortgages.
Yes, see above regarding mortgages.
" Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act in order to control speculation Glass-Steagall wouldn't have prevented the current situation because it comes from the same entity that allowed the banks to do what they did. Furthermore, what about Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, two government or quasi-government agencies who back the majority of the loans out there?
Don't forget Gingrich's involvement! lol
But seriously, what you're saying is untrue. It's been explained time and time again, but you keep repeating it. Why?
According to Republicans: In 2003, with a Republican President, Republican House, and Republican Senate, Democrat Barney Frank single-handedly stopped proposed regulations supported by both Republicans and the institution that was the target of said regulations. Truly, Barney Frank is the most powerful man in the United States.
Please tell us how Fannie Mae caused Lehman Bros. etc. to fail? The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission says you're wrong. And they're smarter than you.
Fannie/Freddie did NOT knowingly bundle bad mortgages. In fact they weren't bad, until the sub-prime bubble caused ALL real-estate to lose value, causing all mortgages, even otherwise good ones, to become more risky.
The problem was not that a bunch of people defaulted on their mortgage. That would have sucked for those individual people.
The problem, which had been explained thoroughly to you before, is that these crappy mortgages were bundled together and sold to investors as GOOD mortgages, so when they defaulted it wasn't just one guy who lost his house and one bank who had to eat the loss, it was multiplied over and over again, because a lot of other people bet on that guy NOT losing his house.
It's incredible how the Republicans can blatantly lie and the idiots simply believe them! Fannie and Freddie cannot back subprime loans. They got in trouble when they started buying those loans to maintain their market share. The problem isn't Fannie and Freddie, but private companies.
Shit, the only reason some right-wing retards were against that particular bailout, is because they believe poor people caused it, and poor people should be on the hook for the tab. If they genuinely grasped that it was pure greed and malfeasance on the part of the financial sector, they wouldn't have said squat. They would've just sat back and enjoyed the sight of working folks with slightly less financial stability than themselves losing their homes.
The SEC allowed the big 5 banks (of which only 2 exist) to up their leverage at their own discretion. Causing them to have more control of the secondary mortgage market, taking some of Fannie/Freddie's market share. Those were where all the bad loans were too.
It's been proven a million times over, that the banks involved in the subprime gamble were not compelled to lend by the government, but spreading lies is what right-wingers love to do.
Now listen, you mortage lender: Banks were desperately trying to find ways to lend to people they normally wouldn't lend to, because they could sell the risk of those loans to Wall Street for a profit, because Wall Street was committing fraud on a global scale.
Understanding yet?
The problem wasn't that Fannie/Freddie's share was too big, it's that it wasn't big enough!
Fannie's delinquency rate today is 4.08% and Freddie's was 3.51%. The overall market is 7.72%. That means private loans suffer much greater delinquency than GSE loans.
I know Fannie/Freddie pisses you off because they helped those shiftless minorities. And I know you hate them even more because they are governmental and to rightards anything to do with government is bad by default (even when they do much better than the "free market"). And I know you hate Barney Frank because he's a Democrat and gay...
But the facts show that your are clearly, demonstrably wrong, without question.
" Work with the other G20 nations to implement a 1% Robin Hood tax on all financial transactions and currency trades You DO realize a) it wouldn't work unless you have an overbearing bureaucracy overseeing it, and b) it would have to include every financial transaction, including donations to charity, right?
"It may not work, so don't do it!"
" Ban high-frequency 'flash' trading and bring sanity to the markets In other words, deny the Internet even exists.
So they can't make it illegal, right? Hey, Lindaman: I hear you can distribute child pornography over the internet, too. So we will be waiting patiently for your posting endorsing the legalization of kiddy porn.
" Break up the too big to fail banks that threaten our future How will this help anything? You're actually advocating weakening the banking industry to try to "save" it. If you break up a big bank into smaller banks, you are ultimately making it easier for banks TO fail, thus worsening the problem.
"Monopolies rule!" (Literally!)
There's good reasons to support local banking.
Let's just say I'm glad you're not doctors.
Republicans talking about health care, even just mentioning doctors in passing, is funny just because of the irony.
" Arrest the financial fraudsters responsible for the 2008 meltdown and bring them to justice If you were serious about this, you'd be trying to arrest Barney Frank.
Nice try. See above regarding Fannie/Freddie.
And even if in some alternate universe, Fannie/Freddie was bad:
Barney Frank was in charge for barely five months before the finacial meltdown, from as far back as 1991 he was voting to reform regulating of Fannie & Freddie. From 1995-2007 Frank was in the House Minority and even then voted to reform Fannie and Freddie. Fannie and Freddie were ordered by HUD to get into the subprime loan business. It was the private sector, investment banks, that led the subprime financing boom.
But we know, Barney Frank is just a sodomite piece of shit, according to right-wingers.
" Ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence corporate money has on our elected representatives in Washington A Presidential Commission started up by the current Administration, with a lot of former Goldman Sachs folks on the federal payroll?
Yep. Got a problem with that? If they go down too, so be it. By the way, you are aware that George W. Bush's administration had many Goldman Sachs alumni, right? The difference is that this Administration is actually cracking down. It's already happening. lol
Apparently many folks believe that "The Government" controls the Fed and its band of Banksters, and not the other way around.
This widespread belief is convenient... for the Banksters.
If you agree with any of these demands, then join us! We will stay here in our encampment in Liberty Plaza until President Obama responds to each of these demands. This is just the beginning, there is more to come as we work together to reshape America.
The People's Assembly of New York City
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/occupy-wall-street-the-draft-manifesto/#ixzz1dUU6vuPe
When looking over this manifesto, it's clear there are two motivations at work: greed and envy. Their slogan could easily be "You have what I want. I want what you have."
A right-winger. Accusing others of selfishness. That-is-hilarious.
And while we're here, is it any coincidence their "solutions" to the problems serve to make the problems worse?
Because you say so?
CEO's running their companies into the ground with risky, over-leveraged commitments, taking the economy into the shitter, all the while expecting (and receiving) millions and millions in bonuses. This is the result of social isolation, ideological masturbation, and the misguided concept that they are the only people with anything important to say.
You must be really pissed that after Wall Street got bailed out, the corporations just pocketed the profits and didn't turn around and invest in America. Oh, wait... you right-wingers don't give a shit about that. That's totally not greedy.
Yeah...it's totally greedy to tell companies that it's wrong to game the system to rob the poor and desperate and favor the already wealthy. Questioning the right of a corporation to loot and pillage its customers and shareholders is Communism!
After all, we all know that it's the lazy people that are willing to get up off of their asses and go set up camps in cities across the U.S. to demonstrate their unhappiness with the current system and state of affairs. And they must be exceedingly entitled to represent people that didn't inherit large amounts of capital. That's sooo astroturf, too.
Sorry, Astroturf Wall Street. Go back to the drawing board and come back when you have a serious proposal on the table.
I think it is funny that you think anyone from the Right has real fixes to any of those problems this country is facing. The rightards just derp right along with calling protesters (voters) dirty hippies, call for more tax cuts for the rich, try to disband the EPA, show no understanding of foreign policy, joke about sexual harassment, joke about suicide of a vet because he happened to be a protester, put up tax plans that will nail the middle class something fierce, etc. You can't even call the President a "weak leader" when it comes to defense, so now you guys have become pro-terrorist and pro-dictator.
You know the right-wingers are doing very poorly when they're losing to the Socialist Party and the American Indian Movement in state/local elections.
What's your serious proposal, Lindaman? Besides pulling up an old draft manifesto email made by someone from a group of people who aren't even in control of OWS?
UPDATE:
We know people take what you say "seriously". Weeks after his post:
They aren't astroturfed, no matter how many times you repeat it. It just sets off people's butthurt detectors.
Sorry the Teabagger rallies were such a letdown. Boy, talk about envy. "You have what I want. I want what you have" indeed.
"This old email that's not an official list of demands, has stuff I don't agree with. Therefore Wall Street corruption is a-okay!"
Hey, Lindaman: They're still protesting.
In my continuing "coverage" of Astroturf Wall Street, I did a bit of digging
"Digging?"
and found the following. (My responses are in bold.)
http://news.yahoo.com/occupy-wall-street-draft-manifesto-183205447.html
That "draft" was a suggestion from one person from AdBusters. According to you, it's not AdBusters running the movement, because then it would be grassroots.
Which is it, Lindaman? Is the manifesto draft representative of OWS (making you a fool for responding to it, since it wouldn't be from the dark shadowy organization behind it), or is the movement grassroots (making you a fool for lying about it being astroturfed)? ROFL!
Sorry, Lindaman. It's the worst of both worlds for you. The manifesto draft isn't an official OWS set of demands, and AdBusters started the idea for OWS, but they aren't in control of OWS. Nobody is. That's what pisses you guys off so much. And now you look like a fool both ways. lol
Yet again, Lindaman has to resort to desperation like this. Aren't strawmen fun?
Ah, well... let's humor him:
A MESSAGE TO AMERICA FROM THE PEOPLE'S ASSEMBLY IN ZUCOTTI PARK
Dear fellow Americans,
We are assembled in Zucotti Park which we've renamed Liberty Plaza in the financial district of New York, because we believe that the American economy is heading in the wrong direction and we have a few ideas for what to do about it. Yeah, like taking a crap on police cars.
Jealous because he shit on a police car instead of in your mouth? And you think they are the pervs?
But seriously, all we've got is a picture of some unidentified random nut with his ass pressed against a police car. No eyewitnesses are named. No other photographs to even confirm he took the dump (how can you take a dump when your ass is pressed against something?). No streaks on the car or other evidence that he's had a bowel movement against it. There isn't even a pile of it on the ground. Also, the article itself says the police ignored the ones that tried to report him. Where's the police report? The Daily Mail and even Blaze says the man is unidentified. The guy that claims he took the photo even tweeted that he couldn't identify him as a protester. The squad car was from Brooklyn, according to the precinct number on it. Was the picture taken in Brooklyn or in Manhattan? It makes a difference, buddy. So, where's the evidence that he's a protester and not a random drunk?
There is a feeling shared by a growing number of people on the streets of the world that the global economy has become a kind of Ponzi scheme, a global casino, run by and for the benefit of the 1 percent. You mean like Michael Moore?
Yep, like Michael Moore. He benefits from it, too. Moore himself says so, and Moore himself wants economic reform even if he has to pay more taxes to get it. Got a problem with that?
We believe that it is possible to inject justice into the global economy. We have come up with the following list of things that can be done right now to rejuvenate democracy and economic justice in our country:
" Halt foreclosures for the unemployed, sick and elderly Why? A mortgage is an agreement, and the terms of the mortgage allow for the foreclosure on people regardless of their personal circumstances. There is no exception to paying your mortgage if you get sick, lose your job, or are old.
Then why aren't you decrying the bailouts? If a corporation can be bailed out, why can't there be a temporary halt on mortgages?
" Increase funding to public services by taxing the richest 1 percent Which will result in the rich paying more, unless they find loopholes, and resulting in nothing positive happening. What happens if those taxes don't solve the problem? What will your solution be? MORE taxes?
Public service funding won't solve anything? What you basing this on?
And if they find loopholes, close them.
" Forgive all student loan debt See above regarding mortgages.
Yes, see above regarding mortgages.
" Reinstate the Glass-Steagall Act in order to control speculation Glass-Steagall wouldn't have prevented the current situation because it comes from the same entity that allowed the banks to do what they did. Furthermore, what about Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae, two government or quasi-government agencies who back the majority of the loans out there?
Don't forget Gingrich's involvement! lol
But seriously, what you're saying is untrue. It's been explained time and time again, but you keep repeating it. Why?
According to Republicans: In 2003, with a Republican President, Republican House, and Republican Senate, Democrat Barney Frank single-handedly stopped proposed regulations supported by both Republicans and the institution that was the target of said regulations. Truly, Barney Frank is the most powerful man in the United States.
Please tell us how Fannie Mae caused Lehman Bros. etc. to fail? The Financial Crisis Inquiry Commission says you're wrong. And they're smarter than you.
Fannie/Freddie did NOT knowingly bundle bad mortgages. In fact they weren't bad, until the sub-prime bubble caused ALL real-estate to lose value, causing all mortgages, even otherwise good ones, to become more risky.
The problem was not that a bunch of people defaulted on their mortgage. That would have sucked for those individual people.
The problem, which had been explained thoroughly to you before, is that these crappy mortgages were bundled together and sold to investors as GOOD mortgages, so when they defaulted it wasn't just one guy who lost his house and one bank who had to eat the loss, it was multiplied over and over again, because a lot of other people bet on that guy NOT losing his house.
It's incredible how the Republicans can blatantly lie and the idiots simply believe them! Fannie and Freddie cannot back subprime loans. They got in trouble when they started buying those loans to maintain their market share. The problem isn't Fannie and Freddie, but private companies.
Shit, the only reason some right-wing retards were against that particular bailout, is because they believe poor people caused it, and poor people should be on the hook for the tab. If they genuinely grasped that it was pure greed and malfeasance on the part of the financial sector, they wouldn't have said squat. They would've just sat back and enjoyed the sight of working folks with slightly less financial stability than themselves losing their homes.
The SEC allowed the big 5 banks (of which only 2 exist) to up their leverage at their own discretion. Causing them to have more control of the secondary mortgage market, taking some of Fannie/Freddie's market share. Those were where all the bad loans were too.
It's been proven a million times over, that the banks involved in the subprime gamble were not compelled to lend by the government, but spreading lies is what right-wingers love to do.
Now listen, you mortage lender: Banks were desperately trying to find ways to lend to people they normally wouldn't lend to, because they could sell the risk of those loans to Wall Street for a profit, because Wall Street was committing fraud on a global scale.
Understanding yet?
The problem wasn't that Fannie/Freddie's share was too big, it's that it wasn't big enough!
Fannie's delinquency rate today is 4.08% and Freddie's was 3.51%. The overall market is 7.72%. That means private loans suffer much greater delinquency than GSE loans.
I know Fannie/Freddie pisses you off because they helped those shiftless minorities. And I know you hate them even more because they are governmental and to rightards anything to do with government is bad by default (even when they do much better than the "free market"). And I know you hate Barney Frank because he's a Democrat and gay...
But the facts show that your are clearly, demonstrably wrong, without question.
" Work with the other G20 nations to implement a 1% Robin Hood tax on all financial transactions and currency trades You DO realize a) it wouldn't work unless you have an overbearing bureaucracy overseeing it, and b) it would have to include every financial transaction, including donations to charity, right?
"It may not work, so don't do it!"
" Ban high-frequency 'flash' trading and bring sanity to the markets In other words, deny the Internet even exists.
So they can't make it illegal, right? Hey, Lindaman: I hear you can distribute child pornography over the internet, too. So we will be waiting patiently for your posting endorsing the legalization of kiddy porn.
" Break up the too big to fail banks that threaten our future How will this help anything? You're actually advocating weakening the banking industry to try to "save" it. If you break up a big bank into smaller banks, you are ultimately making it easier for banks TO fail, thus worsening the problem.
"Monopolies rule!" (Literally!)
There's good reasons to support local banking.
Let's just say I'm glad you're not doctors.
Republicans talking about health care, even just mentioning doctors in passing, is funny just because of the irony.
" Arrest the financial fraudsters responsible for the 2008 meltdown and bring them to justice If you were serious about this, you'd be trying to arrest Barney Frank.
Nice try. See above regarding Fannie/Freddie.
And even if in some alternate universe, Fannie/Freddie was bad:
Barney Frank was in charge for barely five months before the finacial meltdown, from as far back as 1991 he was voting to reform regulating of Fannie & Freddie. From 1995-2007 Frank was in the House Minority and even then voted to reform Fannie and Freddie. Fannie and Freddie were ordered by HUD to get into the subprime loan business. It was the private sector, investment banks, that led the subprime financing boom.
But we know, Barney Frank is just a sodomite piece of shit, according to right-wingers.
" Ordain a Presidential Commission tasked with ending the influence corporate money has on our elected representatives in Washington A Presidential Commission started up by the current Administration, with a lot of former Goldman Sachs folks on the federal payroll?
Yep. Got a problem with that? If they go down too, so be it. By the way, you are aware that George W. Bush's administration had many Goldman Sachs alumni, right? The difference is that this Administration is actually cracking down. It's already happening. lol
Apparently many folks believe that "The Government" controls the Fed and its band of Banksters, and not the other way around.
This widespread belief is convenient... for the Banksters.
If you agree with any of these demands, then join us! We will stay here in our encampment in Liberty Plaza until President Obama responds to each of these demands. This is just the beginning, there is more to come as we work together to reshape America.
The People's Assembly of New York City
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2011/10/17/occupy-wall-street-the-draft-manifesto/#ixzz1dUU6vuPe
When looking over this manifesto, it's clear there are two motivations at work: greed and envy. Their slogan could easily be "You have what I want. I want what you have."
A right-winger. Accusing others of selfishness. That-is-hilarious.
And while we're here, is it any coincidence their "solutions" to the problems serve to make the problems worse?
Because you say so?
CEO's running their companies into the ground with risky, over-leveraged commitments, taking the economy into the shitter, all the while expecting (and receiving) millions and millions in bonuses. This is the result of social isolation, ideological masturbation, and the misguided concept that they are the only people with anything important to say.
You must be really pissed that after Wall Street got bailed out, the corporations just pocketed the profits and didn't turn around and invest in America. Oh, wait... you right-wingers don't give a shit about that. That's totally not greedy.
Yeah...it's totally greedy to tell companies that it's wrong to game the system to rob the poor and desperate and favor the already wealthy. Questioning the right of a corporation to loot and pillage its customers and shareholders is Communism!
After all, we all know that it's the lazy people that are willing to get up off of their asses and go set up camps in cities across the U.S. to demonstrate their unhappiness with the current system and state of affairs. And they must be exceedingly entitled to represent people that didn't inherit large amounts of capital. That's sooo astroturf, too.
Sorry, Astroturf Wall Street. Go back to the drawing board and come back when you have a serious proposal on the table.
I think it is funny that you think anyone from the Right has real fixes to any of those problems this country is facing. The rightards just derp right along with calling protesters (voters) dirty hippies, call for more tax cuts for the rich, try to disband the EPA, show no understanding of foreign policy, joke about sexual harassment, joke about suicide of a vet because he happened to be a protester, put up tax plans that will nail the middle class something fierce, etc. You can't even call the President a "weak leader" when it comes to defense, so now you guys have become pro-terrorist and pro-dictator.
You know the right-wingers are doing very poorly when they're losing to the Socialist Party and the American Indian Movement in state/local elections.
What's your serious proposal, Lindaman? Besides pulling up an old draft manifesto email made by someone from a group of people who aren't even in control of OWS?
UPDATE:
We know people take what you say "seriously". Weeks after his post:
They aren't astroturfed, no matter how many times you repeat it. It just sets off people's butthurt detectors.
Sorry the Teabagger rallies were such a letdown. Boy, talk about envy. "You have what I want. I want what you have" indeed.
"This old email that's not an official list of demands, has stuff I don't agree with. Therefore Wall Street corruption is a-okay!"
Hey, Lindaman: They're still protesting.